What Realtors & Lender actually get paid for! Guests Chantry Abbott and Michelle Evans (St. George Real Estate Radio Show)
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Below is the actual St. George Real Estate Morning Drive show, hosted by St. George Real Estate Agent Jeremy Larkin, word for word! Enjoy and please share if you find it valuable!
Jeremy Larkin and The Larkin Group @ Keller Williams Realty can be reached by calling 435-767-9821, or emailing email@example.com.
Andy: News radio 94.9, 890 KDXU. Good morning to you. Tell me this guy has the coolest music in the biz right here. It is Jeremy Larkin. I did not even want to turn it down. You have got Jeremy Larkin, St. George Real Estate travel show, and I know Jeremy is trying to get all is tech set up and everything over there. Are you ready, Jeremy?
Jeremy: I loved how you stuttered there. You had a hard time.
Andy: Well, it has been a weird kind of –
Jeremy: I do not know what else to say about it, Andy. Let’s just name the elephant in the room. Right?
Andy: It has been a weird kind of day. You look outside and our red rocks are covered in white snow. I know you had issues this morning with the two-hour delayed start for school.
Jeremy: Yeah, this threw the kids’ schedule off a little bit this morning. No one in this room has a child going to school except for me.
Michelle: That is true.
Jeremy: And there are a whole bunch of us in this room. There are five people in this room. You know what is amazing?
Andy: I have two by the way.
Jeremy: Oh you do have two high schoolers?
Jeremy: Okay. So you do.
Jeremy: That is nice. That is good. So for them, it is cool. They are like I have got to sleep in and I will just drive to school. I have two boys that are going to school at odd hours. So normally the one is going either at 6:55 at the bus stop or he is being delivered at 7:30, and then the other goes at 8:15. So with the radio show and then a meeting at 9:30, I am finagling this kind of thing. It is being finagled as they say.
Andy: That is a good work.
Jeremy: Really, it is. It is being finagled. Today, Andy? Whoops, I dropped my microphone. I am going to invite you to lend that microphone to these guys today because we are going to have three of us on the show today.
Andy: Okay. Okay.
Jeremy: I have got some incredible guests in the studio. Andy Griffin is almost a guest because he is brand new. I have got Chantry Abbot with Guild Mortgage, on the air with us. One of our great friends, incredible home mortgage lender. And I have got, well, why don’t you introduce yourself, Michelle.
Michelle: Hey, Michelle Evans with the Larkin Group. Glad to be here.
Jeremy: I like it.
Michelle: Glad to get here safe and sound in all the slush.
Jeremy: It is kind of slushy out there. It was 33, I think, all night long.
Michelle: Oh perfect. One degree.
Jeremy: And I think that is why school did not get cancelled. So the kids can blame one degree. Because I think at 32 degrees, you would have had some really extra nasty roads and it would have been different. Right?
Michelle: Yeah, I was surprised that they were all right. They are slushy, but it is doable.
Jeremy: Chant, what do you got over there?
Chantry: See this kid is making a snowman. Kind of cool, right?
Jeremy: Isn’t this amazing?
Chantry: Bluff Street Park.
Jeremy: Yeah, it is absolutely incredible. We are at the Cherry Creek Studios on North Bluff Street, which is on the west side of Bluff, up on a hill. And those of us watching our live feed, we are on Facebook dot com slash Jeremy Larkin. Or we are on YouTube Live which is YouTube dot com slash Go St. George TV. But from here we see everything. Like we see everything.
Michelle: It is a great view.
Jeremy: It is incredible. It is amazing. So we are looking out at Bluff Street Park, and the famed snowstorm of 2013, we could not get up this hill, and last night they were forecasting five inches. I would be shocked if we even got two inches. I do not know.
Jeremy: Chantry, what did you get at your house? Maybe an inch?
Chantry: Yeah. But I think there was more in like Santa Clara. I saw some folks this morning that got quite a bit.
Jeremy: Where it is higher.
Chantry: It was pretty hard.
Jeremy: Yeah. I went up to the Ledges last night at 8:30, eight o’clock, maybe to take my kids to a little get together and it was like a full-scale, winter, just a blizzard on the way up to the Ledges. It was incredible. And there was this fog later between here and the Ledges.
Jeremy: So then you were going up and then it was snowing and you could not see, and it was wacky. So anyway, gang, look, clearly everyone knows it is snowing outside, and all of our friends on Facebook are going to make sure that we know that. Are they not? Everyone is going to do that today. So we are going to have a fun discussion. I do not know what Jesse has got going on. He is over there. What do you have going on over there? What is that? My phone died? I do not know, man. Who knows? So we are running Facebook Live. We are going to talk today about what realtors and lenders actually get paid for. Is that fair?
Michelle: That sounds good.
Jeremy: So Chantry has been with us for a really long time. How many years? A decade?
Chantry: I remember working with you back when you were starting to take over all the foreclosures. So that was probably –
Chantry: So let’s say 2010, 2009 or 10.
Chantry: I am tangled with my coat here.
Jeremy: So there you go. I do not know about this phone. So it is funny, guys. We are running a Facebook Live, and for whatever reason, it just died on us. I hope we are still live, but I think we are still going to, we are good to go. We are good to go. So 2009, 2010, you came into our world. Right? And since that time, have you ever been paid a salary to close mortgages?
Chantry: I have not.
Jeremy: Right. Michelle, how long have you been in the real estate business?
Michelle: Going on ten years.
Jeremy: Ten years. Have you ever been paid a salary to sell real estate?
Jeremy: No, so we only get paid, right, gang, when the deal closes. That is the only way to describe it.
Jeremy: Right. And so Michelle and I were in this discussion I think yesterday talking about this dynamic that folks perceive, so this is the perception. So the perception is like Michelle goes out and shows homes and that is where she is doing the work. So the real work she is doing is showing people homes. Like find me a home. Correct?
Michelle: Right. It is all in the finding.
Jeremy: Yeah, it is in the finding. And the perception of course, is that that is where it is. That is where the pay –
Michelle: The value (indiscernible) –
Jeremy: Where the value is.
Michelle: Yes, to open the door.
Jeremy: It is to open the door, and at the end of the day, let’s all be frank with ourselves. What hourly rate could we pay someone to open doors? Could we pay someone minimum wage?
Michelle: We sure could.
Jeremy: Yeah, what is minimum wage anymore?
Chantry: Seven-fifty or something. Right?
Jeremy: Yeah, $7.50 a hour. We could theoretically pay someone $7.50 to open doors. And the issue is that for us in the real estate business, the real work, the real work especially if you are buying a home, right, begins when Michelle?
Michelle: When it goes under contract.
Jeremy: Right. So, what do you mean by under contract?
Michelle: Well, and putting it under contract, too. So it is the negotiation of getting it under contract, and particularly in the last few years where it has been a seller’s market, so you have really got to know your stuff to be able to win that contract for your buyer.
Jeremy: Yeah, absolutely. Right? So the work for the real estate agent happens we, like when it goes under contract, and of course, what Michelle is saying is when we get into the negotiation for the contract. Right?
Jeremy: That is the issue. That is the issue.
Jeremy: You told me a cool story, and Chant, I am going to have you chime in here momentarily. You bought a home here how long ago?
Michelle: Yeah, back in ’05.
Jeremy: Okay, and you were not even an agent at the time.
Jeremy: Of course.
Michelle: I was teaching out at Tuacahn High School and I used Will Potter, who is now our competitor.
Michelle: He was great. He did a great job.
Jeremy: Great guy in town.
Michelle: We had three days to find a home. He blocked that out for us. We looked at 32 homes. I just want to say, so sorry, Will. I am just going to apologize publicly for doing that to you.
Jeremy: 32 homes. That is ten a day. That is a lot of homes.
Michelle: Oh my gosh, we ran the guy ragged. And ironically, we went back and bought the very first home that we saw. Anyway, and then I was teaching out at Tuacahn High School and he called me and he said when is your lunch hour? I said well it is from 12-1 or whatever it was, and he said I need to come out and have you sign this addendum. I said well you do not have to do it then. You can do it later or whatever. I had no perception that we have legal confines, legal deadlines that, he said, no, I need to have you sign this by five o’clock. I was like wow. Okay.
Jeremy: Hey, come on, you do not have to do that. It is fine.
Michelle: Like it is okay. I was trying to be so nice to the guy. Clueless. And what is funny is that I had bought four homes prior to that. So I think a lot of times agents think oh well, they have been around the block. They have bought a home or two before. And granted, I was probably not as smart as most about it. But you just do not realize what is the process once it is under contract? And I think that is probably some of the pushback of millennials. Well, I can find a house online.
Michelle: And we are like right. That is just getting us into the game.
Chantry: And you probably will find it online right?
Chantry: No matter how many –
Jeremy: 95% likelihood, guys.
Chantry: And no matter how much somebody tells you what they want –
Jeremy: 95% likelihood.
Chantry: They know what they want. Right?
Chantry: They cannot really relay it. So look online. That is just the beginning. That is the easy part.
Michelle: Yeah, yeah. That is the fun part.
Chantry: Jeremy, when did you get in the business?
Chantry: That was probably right after they had the books. Do you remember the books?
Jeremy: The books were obviously previous to my time.
Chantry: Not by far though, right?
Jeremy: I do not think by far.
Chantry: Probably late 90s, early 2000s.
Jeremy: What was the MLS called at that time? The Multiple Listing Service. It was called –
Chantry: I do not know.
Jeremy: Oh, what was it? It was this weird –
Michelle: I do not know.
Chantry: So those you that do not know, was it once a month, once a month the Board of Realtors would print out a book with a page for every single listing that was out there. So if there were 500 listings, there were would be 500 pages that would have property for sale.
Chantry: There was not an internet so the buyers could not go find the homes. So they really did need to sit down with an agent and flip through this book and try to figure it all this out and which ones were sold and which ones were not.
Chantry: Now with the internet you find a house on the internet.
Chantry: So anyone can do that.
Michelle: And the contract was so much less back then. So it really was, their perception was correct.
Jeremy: Yeah, we have added five more pages of contract paperwork.
Michelle: It really was finding the house. The weight was more on that.
Michelle: And much less with the contract. Now it has flipped. Now it is reversed.
Jeremy: Well, and let’s understand how buyers, let’s hit that door. These guys are exceptionally loud down the hall, aren’t they? Let’s remember how a buyer finds a home. Right? And so this is really good. If you are a home seller, I hope you will really listen really closely to this today. So what will happen is someone will put their home on the market, and they will be like if I can just broadcast this enough times, if I can just be in everybody’s face long enough, we will find a buyer. Right? But how do buyers, in fact, find the home they want to buy?
Michelle: Almost always online.
Jeremy: But how? When I say how, how does a buyer find a home? Do they go hey, a realtor called me and said they have the home for me?
Michelle: Oh, no never. They are out on the home websites. They are out looking. They are searching themselves. They can do it online.
Chantry: So wouldn’t you say really the only accurate, there are others. Yeah, we talk about Zillow and stuff, but only one that is truly live, real-time accurate is probably the Multiple Listing Service that you have to get by –
Michelle: Primary source. That feeds all those websites.
Chantry: — through a real estate agent.
Jeremy: Yeah, so let’s think about this. Chantry, let’s say that you want to buy a home today. What kind of home would you want to buy? Let’s just have some fun here.
Chantry: If I were to buy a house today?
Jeremy: If you were to buy a house today, what would it be?
Chantry: Let’s buy a million-dollar house in Green Springs.
Jeremy: And what would be a couple basic criteria that you –
Chantry: Really nice swimming pool, maybe a game room in the basement.
Chantry: Four or five bedrooms, maybe a big casita. Kind of know we are dreaming. Right?
Jeremy: Okay. No, we are dreaming. Okay. Beautiful. So what you would do, where would you go to start looking?
Chantry: Well, me, knowing what I know, I would call a real estate friend, one of you guys, and say hey, this is what I am looking for. Set me up on a search.
Jeremy: Yeah, so two things that actually happen. Right? Number one, you call an agent and say set me up on a search. Tell me if you find anything. And then number two, you and your wife at eleven o’clock at night would be on a computer –
Chantry: Yep. Michelle said –
Jeremy: — or on an app searching. And you would be like Zillow dot com. Show me every home that is four bedrooms, three bathrooms, 3100 square feet or bigger, in the Green Springs area. I want a pool. It needs to be under a million dollars, and here is what would happen. You would actually burn yourself out looking, obsessing, you would obsess. Let me explain. This is really good. Jesse, just yell. Am I accurate with how buyers search for homes?
Jesse: Oh yeah.
Jeremy: They will drive their agent crazy searching. Hey, I saw this new one. I saw this new one. Did you see you the new one? Hey, what did you do this weekend? Well, actually we know that we are working with you, but we drove around, and we went in 27 open houses because we figured that somehow what we wanted you were not showing to us. But we could not find anything. And then we went to Craigslist and then we went to KSL dot com and we went to Zillow dot com, and then we came back around. They will literally drive themselves sick and they will get to this point of fatigue where they are like I do not even think I can look at another home. So what I always remind sellers is that if your home is a great home priced in a proper way, will buyers find it, yes or no?
Michelle: Many times over.
Jeremy: Yeah. So here is the other thing that sellers do not realize. Is it the buyer that is overlooking your home? Probably overlooked it like 30 times. Here is why. They tried KSL. They saw it there. They went to Zillow. They saw it there. They figured maybe realtor dot com would have it. They saw it there. They are getting listings emailed to them from five different agents because bless our hearts, that is what we do. We are consumers. So we go around and we see five different real estate signs. We call all of them, and all the agents being agents the way we are, hey Michelle, thanks for calling. Hey, how about we set you up on a home search. We will send you all the new listings in the morning. Wouldn’t that be great?
Michelle: Oh yeah.
Jeremy: Chantry is smiling because that is exactly what we do. I will just get you what you want in the time you want. Won’t that be great? There is a real estate script. They are getting listings from 5 to 10 agents based on their criteria. Are they seeing the home, yes or no?
Jeremy: They have overlooked your home so many times. Actually, you would be offended at how many times they looked at it and said no. We have seen it. No. Right? So we are having this interesting conversation here today about understanding the consumer’s mindset. Right?
Jeremy: So the consumer’s mindset is number one, from the seller’s perspective, well, maybe there is someone out there who does not know about my home. Trust me, everyone knows about your home that is looking for a home, especially if you hired a good agent.
Michelle: And when they come in for a consultation and we pull up a list of homes that they are interested in and I will say hey, I just want to make sure we vetted the process. Have you seen this one, this one, this one? And not only have they usually seen it, but they have named it. Oh yeah, the big tree home. Oh yeah, the lion house because there is lion statue on it.
Jeremy: They have named every home.
Michelle: They are very familiar. They have seen it multiple times on multiple occasions.
Jeremy: And this is a my reminder I would give to sellers. For people who are selling and trying to find a home, I want you to think about what you are doing. You are doing what I am saying the buyer for your home is doing. You know you have seen all the homes. So the buyers come in. You take them out, Michelle, and for $7.25, $7.50 a hour, no pay per hour, you show them homes. And the real work begins the day that you say oh we found a home.
Michelle: Yeah. We want to make an offer. We do not want to let this one get away. So then we start the negotiations.
Jeremy: What kind of paperwork is required to buy a home right now in the state of Utah?
Michelle: Well, you have got the contract, six-page contract.
Jeremy: Real Estate purchase contract.
Jeremy: A Rep-C.
Michelle: Yeah. Then you have got a buyer-broker agreement so that we have –
Jeremy: With the broker.
Michelle: — a right to represent you in the deal.
Chantry: Six pages does not do it justice. There is no inch that is not used. It is a lot.
Michelle: Yeah, it is a lot.
Jeremy: It is 29 sections, 26 sections.
Chantry: It is not like hey let’s just hand this to a, we have seen horror stories when people try not to use a realtor. It is like let’s just take this contract and fill it out and turn it into a seller. There are so many things in that contract that if they do not know exactly what they are doing, they are going to miss out on something.
Jeremy: Yeah, so it is six-pages. There 26 sections.
Chantry: 26 sections, yeah.
Michelle: Yeah, and for example like what loan are you using? What loan are you using? That will determine an additional addendum that is required for that loan.
Michelle: Then there is the buyer due diligence checklist that the state requires that. So that is something to warn the buyers hey here is a list of stuff to be sure that you are checking off so that you make sure that you are making the right decision. That has to be included. And then negotiations go back and forth which will add addenda to the contract. It can get pretty –
Michelle: Yeah, did you like that?
Jeremy: You know what is interesting?
Michelle: Not addendums.
Jeremy: How about this? How about this? Section 8.4, additional earnest money. If the Rep-C has not been previously cancelled by the buyer as provided in Sections 8.1, 8.2, or 8.3 as applicable, then no later than the due diligence deadline or the financing appraisal deadline, whichever is later, buyer will or will not deposit additional earnest money. Any additional earnest money deposited, if applicable, and sometimes referred to herein as the deposits, that the earnest money deposit or deposits, if applicable, shall be credited toward the purchase price at closing. Did anyone hear anything I just said?
Chantry: It is very attorney-speak.
Jeremy: That is one stupid paragraph —
Michelle: Yeah. Legalese.
Jeremy: — of 26 sections of a contract. Right?
Chantry: And I know I should not use this term, but I do tell them when they are working with Michelle or someone that is really good like Michelle that Michelle is your attorney. You can find the house. She has to let you in, and there are a lot of things that she does need involved there, but she is your attorney, really.
Jeremy: Yeah, because they sign (indiscernible) that we are not legal help but we are playing that.
Jeremy: How about this, and by the way, I have got Michelle Evans with the Larkin Group with our team over at the Keller Williams Realty. I have got Chantry Abbott, Guild Mortgage. So Chantry, you are a lender. What about if somebody submits a contract to you and it has deadlines that say that there is a financing and appraisal deadline? You get to deal with that. Right?
Chantry: Yeah, we have to make sure that we have got their loan approved and their appraisal reviewed, and everything looks good, otherwise they are potentially risking their earnest money deposit, which if you do not know what that is, like a security deposit, and sometimes it can be really expensive. We have seen $5,000, $10,000 can be in trouble if they are not having a real estate agent that is taking care of those deadlines.
Jeremy: How many pages in your typical loan contract to close a loan? I do not mean the contract with you. I mean the actual loan agreement with the bank. How many pages? Typically.
Chantry: Like at closing, it is probably roughly 30 pages.
Jeremy: 30 pages. Has anyone ever read one of those? It is epic. Right?
Jeremy: It is epic boilerplate –
Michelle: Take your dictionary.
Jeremy: — legal-speak. Right? So Chantry, what if I turn in the contract to you that says listen, Michelle, wrote an offer. The offer is contingent on an appraisal. It is contingent on –
Michelle: Due diligence
Jeremy: — due diligence or a home inspection. It is also contingent on the seller who is in San Francisco selling their home, and there is an addendum that says that they have just put their home on the market in San Francisco, and they have 21 days to sell the home, and if they do not sell the home in 21 days, then we can cancel the contract and come back. While that is at it, we have a 72-hour clause that will allow other buyers to come in and the other buyers can make offers on the listing that Michelle wrote an offer on and then they could kick the first buyer out of place. Do you see that stuff as a lender?
Chantry: Yeah, quite often.
Jeremy: All of the time. When does the work begin, guys? The work begins at contract.
Michelle: Very much so.
Jeremy: And so if we are selling your home, by the way, the work, of course, begins when we start marketing your property. Of course, right? But we are really more, the day that we sign that listing agreement and we start saying let’s schedule photography and let’s do what we do. But if you are buying a home, the heavy-duty work, that is contract work.
Michelle: And I think that they do not realize that there is a second set of negotiations. So during that due diligence period, that is 10 days, two weeks roughly that you have to get a home inspection done and then there is a second set of negotiations. Because a home is sold as is, but often sellers will defer maintenance and just feel like well the buyer can take care of that.
Jeremy: So you mean there is a negotiation to buy the house and then there is another second negotiation once they have done an inspection?
Jeremy: What if the appraisal comes in low, Chantry?
Chantry: Another opportunity for a negotiation. Right? So I guess that is a third potential negotiation.
Jeremy: What percentage, Chantry, of deals do you see have an appraisal come in low right now?
Chantry: Probably 95% of them are just fine. So maybe 1 out of 20 or something along those lines. There is an appraisal something. Sometimes it is not just value. Maybe it is the roof has an issue that needs to be fixed or things like that.
Jeremy: Guys, it is snowing really hard out there. I just want to interrupt this previously scheduled program.
Michelle: Gosh, it is pretty.
Jeremy: So, Michelle, Chantry, so happy you are with us today. Let me share some statistics with some folks this morning. It is February 21st. We got a little bit of a slow start at the Larkin Group this year. Last year, we had 173 buyers or sellers, families we helped. But we have 21 properties under contract, representing a buyer or seller. We have closed 13. So all that paperwork we just talked about, 13 times we have closed it. We have 21 under contract. We have executed 31 contracts since January 1st, meaning we took a buyer out, went through all that nonsense, negotiated a purchase price, negotiated a deal, went through the inspections, went through the appraisals, went through all the headache. Chantry, does sometimes days before closing a lender, like the underwriting lender come back and say that they need a pay stub from 2007 to prove that these people are actually real?
Chantry: Can. We sure try hard to avoid it but yeah, it is just one of those things sometimes. Right?
Jeremy: Yeah, right. So we have put 31 contracts together like this, and eight of them have fallen apart so far this year. That is the numbers so far. So 8 of 31 have fallen apart. And why do contracts fall out, Michelle? Like what would be the reasons? Why do deals fall apart mostly?
Michelle: They cannot qualify for their loan is a big one. They change their mind is another one. Something happens during the home inspection and if the seller is not willing to credit or repair that issue, then they are like we are out.
Michelle: So that is another thing.
Jeremy: You mean they get scared. They get nervous, they do not like the neighborhood, they do not like the church, parish, whatever they went to. They found five broken roof tiles and maybe they are concerned that, and the list goes on and on. Right?
Michelle: It does.
Chantry: Appraisal. Appraisal does not come out good. There is an issue.
Michelle: Their home does not sell. It was contingent on –
Jeremy: Yeah, they had to sell their home.
Michelle: Their contract fell through back in San Francisco or whatever it could be.
Jeremy: Yeah, the domino chain. Chantry, as we wrap up, final minute. Most important message you feel like buyers and sellers need from a lending perspective today.
Chantry: Yeah, I just think that I have preached about this a bunch of times. But interest rates, we all know at some point, are going to be going up. Right? They have gone up about 1% in 2018. They went up about 1% in 2017.
Jeremy: Yeah. By the way, that costs people 20% of their purchasing power.
Chantry: And that is what I was going to tie it into. Perfect.
Chantry: If that goes up, no, it is great. If that goes up 1% again in 2019, which it probably will, most likely, who knows, but probably, that impacts their purchasing power or their monthly payment by 10%, which means home prices would have to change by 10% or they would have to buy a 10% less home. So I know the price of the house matters. I bought a place in 2007. I still have it. I have a ton of equity.
Jeremy: Worst possible time to buy a house.
Chantry: I have a ton of equity because it does not matter that much unless you are going to sell it next year.
Jeremy: Yep. Exactly. Exactly.
Jeremy: Michelle, thank you for being on here with us today.
Michelle: Thank you.
Jeremy: And for bringing your expertise and talking about what realtors, I was about to say real estate agents, real estate agents and mortgage professionals, mortgage lenders, we get paid to produce an outcome. Right? At the end of the day, we do not get paid for the hours we work because sometimes we work 100 hours and sometimes, we work seven on the same deal. Right?
Jeremy: We get paid to produce an outcome. We get paid to walk somebody through the most complicated and emotional process of their life, and that might include needing to reduce their price if they are selling the home. All sorts of things.
Chantry: I think we protect them through that process. Right? That is what we do.
Jeremy: Bingo. Bingo. Guys, I want you to visit St. George Home Searching dot com. St. George Home Searching dot com because we are talking about the MLS. If you want to look at every single house that is on the Multiple Listing Service right now, St. George Home Searching dot com. You can click on the link there to find out what your home is worth. Check it out. Thanks, Chantry Abbott, Guild Mortgage. 674-1090 if you want to speak with him. 674-1090. If you want to reach out to us, 275-1690. Sold in St. George dot com. There you go. End of story.